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Crotch curve vs. big buttcheeks
No other way to put it...
Tailypo
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Tailypo
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Date: 3/17/06 1:24 PM

I know the question came up when the recent Threads article came out, but I'm not sure if any answers came up. DH and I painstakingly took my crotch curve, then the curve of my left buttcheek over the biggest point. Here are the results:
Paper crotch curve and tinfoil buttcurve
So, help me figure out the geometry of this. Do I simply modify the crotch curve to reflect the widest part of my rump? Because clearly, if I modify pants patterns to fit my crotch curve as taken in the valley between my buttcheeks, it will not result in a pair of fitted pants.

-- Edited on 3/17/06 1:31 PM --

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rhoda bicycle

rhoda bicycle
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In reply to Tailypo


Date: 3/17/06 1:46 PM

You could try taping a cardboard or wire "bridge" across in one or two places. That's what Elizabeth Allemung suggests in " European Cut", a sloper drafting book that is way over my head, but offers several useful suggestions for taking accurate measurements.
The bridge would probably work better with the tin foil curve than the office supply store flexible curve.

Debbie Cook
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In reply to Tailypo


Date: 3/17/06 1:57 PM

Have a look at Belinda's (Sew4Fun) diagram at pg 221 in this thread. That's how you get your crotch curve onto paper.

To get the fabric to go around your hips/butt, you extend the with to the sideseams from the center back seam as far out as your measurements tell you, plus you add or subtract from the crotch points (upper inseams) as necessary for full (or thin) thighs.

This is so hard to explain in just words. I wish I could have you here in person because I know we could get a pair of good fitting pants in an afternoon if I could just pin pattern and fabric on you. I know, that doesn't help you much now, does it?

In your photo album, you have a green checked muslin. That one looks pretty darn close. Do you want to try with that pattern again and I'll go step-by-step with you (with illustrations) to get them to fit? It would mean doing a number of muslins so we can make one or two changes at a time and then checking fit again, and also you/your DH taking pics along the way.

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"I base my fashion sense on what doesn't itch." Gilda Radner
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elizajo
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Date: 3/17/06 2:04 PM

I am no expert, but, it seems to me that your fitting challenge is more of an FBA for "buttcheeks". So put your needed width in at that place by making a right angle slash--- a horizontal and vertical slash meeting at the apex. Then dart out the excess fabric in the high hip and waist area using the back darts and side seams. You may also need to do the now infamous fisheye dart below. That way you maintain the crotch curve length.

ETA: Ignore this post-- I was composing mine while Debbie was sending hers. Sew4Funs diagram is really cool!
-- Edited on 3/17/06 2:07 PM --

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Elizabeth

Tailypo
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In reply to Debbie Cook


Date: 3/17/06 6:04 PM

Thanks, Debbie -- man, I would love to pop over for a pants sewing party!

Anyway, I have un/fortunately lost about 14lbs since that muslin so I think I would have to start from scratch anyway. I am contemplating selling my organs so that I can attend a pair of pants fitting workshops in June with Judy Barlup and Joyce Murphy, so I'm hoping to finally master pants then. I just thought Iwould work on the curve one more time, since my DH and I were, most astonishingly, both in the house at the same time, and awake.

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Sew4Fun
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In reply to Debbie Cook
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Date: 3/17/06 6:34 PM

That is thread is pretty long so I'll repost here to make it easy on everyone.
-----------------------

Now I haven't read the Threads article but I learnt how to do this a few years ago from an experienced German patternmaker. It was the best thing I ever did and I've never looked back. It's not the total answer to good fitting pants but it's a large part. It was light bulb moment for me. It is useless though unless you do it correctly.

With your front and back pattern pieces you must line up the first 10-15cms of the inseams in order to do this correctly. Lining up at the crotch point (as the I believe the Threads article demonstrates) only tells you what the crotch depth, body depth and crotch length are. It doesn't tell you what shape the crotch needs to be, including how slanted the CB crotch should be. The CB slant is the part which relates to your buttcheeks.



This diagram is all very rough and not 100% accurate, but it should give you the idea. The one on the left is a flat buttocks. The one on the right is a sway back/ larger buttocks.

The distance from the your back to the straight line (CB wedge) must match the distance from the straight line to the CB seam on the pants pattern. This determines how slanted your CB seam will be. The flatter your buttocks the straighter the CB seam.

The larger the CB wedge (buttocks) the larger the CB slant The fabric is cut more on the bias (more stretch to go over the larger buttocks) and the greater the "dart" in the CB seam. There is also more width/ fabric over the lower buttocks. If I measured just above crotch level there is more fabric width wise to go over a larger buttcheek. This is how the buttcheek part comes into the equation.

The curved part at the bottom of the crotch curve is the only part which needs to match your crotch shape. The place where your crotch shape curves inwards is the point where the curved part of the crotch curve stops and the straight line of the CF or CB seam starts.

It does get more complex but this is your starting point for your basic pants block. This is also a very quick summary so I hope I did it justice. I'm not an expert on this and only passing on what someone taught me. I do know it worked and gave me the answer I needed when all these other methods of molding your crotch shape didn't.

HTH, Belinda

-- Edited on 3/17/06 6:41 PM --

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Belinda. Melbourne, Australia
http://sew-4-fun.blogspot.com/

beangirl
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In reply to Sew4Fun


Date: 3/17/06 10:55 PM

Thanks Belinda, this is so helpful (and I hadn't even thought to read the Ozzie thread). I really struggled with the inseam placement when that dratted Threads article came out, because she shows the points touching but when I laid mine out it didn't make geometric sense to me, if you know what I mean. I couldn't work it out. I'm so glad you had a better solution!

Tailypo, as for a pants fitting class-- sell that kidney! You don't need two anyway. I was SOOOOO SOOOO SOOOOO (do you get the idea?) amazed by the Peggy Sagers pantsfitting class. I mean, I'm still working out the kinks on mine, but the concept was just so clear when you see it in action by an expert (and also so simple!).

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kristine

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Sew4Fun
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In reply to beangirl


Date: 3/18/06 7:15 PM

>>Thanks Belinda, this is so helpful

Your welcome. Articles such as the one in Threads confused me for years until I was taught the entire equation and how it all fits together.

>>but when I laid mine out it didn't make geometric sense to
>>me, if you know what I mean. I couldn't work it out.

I know exactly what you mean as it doesn't make geometric sense. It doesn't replicate how the pant fits on your body. It is only dealing with one thing, body depth or body space as they call it.

It may help you get the crotch length right in the right places but as can be seen on Skye's pants, it doesn't help with the shape or angle of the CB seam. It will sort of work for trousers which are baggy in the back thighs but not for pants, slacks and jeans, as the geometry isn't right, as you correctly pointed out.

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Belinda. Melbourne, Australia
http://sew-4-fun.blogspot.com/

bunz
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In reply to Sew4Fun


Date: 3/18/06 7:39 PM

Belinda,

What you're saying makes a lot of sense -- and you have the pants to prove it!!

I do have a question. That blue line that represents -- excuse me -- a ruler up your middle !! -- how do you get that? I can find the midpoint at the bottom of my crotch, but is it the hip bone at the top?

Oh, I'm sure this some really dumb, obvious thing. I'm on my 4th muslin and ready to try this technique, but feeling a bit worn out!!

Nina

Sew4Fun
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In reply to bunz
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Date: 3/18/06 8:39 PM

Hi Nina,
LOL! I love the ruler up your middle expression. Too funny! The blue 'ruler' just represents the spine and therefore someone's posture. The person on the right has a sway back.

I understand where your question is coming from as I had the same question. It is important is ensure your moulded crotch shape is level when comparing it against your pattern. As you may have noticed you can tilt your moulded crotch shape in numerous directions so you need a vertical or horizontal grainline in affect.

To do this, when measuring find your natural waist by bending side to side and place a piece of ribbon or elastic at your waist. Get someone to help make the waist elastic level at the front & back, by measuring up from the floor.

When you mould your crotch shape, place a mark where the mould (whatever you are using) meets your waist. This gives you a level horizontal line and you can draw a perpendicular (vertical) line from this. The vertical line then should be parallel with the inseam. It doesn't have to line up with the inseam/ crotch point, as you place that where you prefer.

(If you don't wear your pants at your natural waist you can also place a mark where you like the top of your pants to sit so you know your crotch length).

I hope this makes sense and answers your question.
Belinda

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Belinda. Melbourne, Australia
http://sew-4-fun.blogspot.com/

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