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Forum > Fitting Woes > Vogue 1366 "wearable" muslin - diagonal lines in back ( Moderated by CarolynGM, Deepika)

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Vogue 1366 "wearable" muslin - diagonal lines in back
fisheggs
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fisheggs
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Date: 4/8/14 4:00 PM

Good afternoon,

I'd greatly appreciate any thoughts you have on the pants I just made using Vogue 1366. It's out of a suiting fabric with pretty much no stretch at all. I like most of the fit, although the waistband gaps in the back when I don't wear a belt. However, I wear these to teach in and there are some pronounced diagonal lines in back. I'd like to solve this problem during the next iteration of these pants. Any thoughts? I'm guessing this is due to my saddlebags? Is that what is referred to as the low hip?

Apologies, these are after a day at work, so some of the horizontal wrinkles are just from sitting.

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IMAG0053

Tarrbaby
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Subject: Vogue 1366 wearable muslin - diagonal lines in back Date: 4/9/14 7:31 AM

I think it's the crotch shape and length. Counterintuitive but pin the back seam deeper above the curve of the seat. See if that helps. Pin a double ended horizontal dart across the back above the curve and see if that helps. (Largest part of the dart at center back, tapering to nothing at the side seams). Also you might watch Peggy sagers videos that are free on the silhouette pattern website, or Angela wolfs classes here, or craftsy has pant classes. I think these fit exceptionally well except for the baggy seat issue.

------
Dawn T.

fisheggs
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Date: 4/9/14 10:36 AM

Huh - I'll give that a try! Thanks so much. Even though it's a little counter-intuitive, as you say, I can see how that may release some material to get rid of the lines.

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Date: 4/9/14 12:08 PM

I have found Kenneth King's fitting DVD's available from Threads to be the most helpful in fitting pants. I think part of the difficulty may be a "twist" in the leg as compared to the rest of the pants. It is too hard for me to explain in text, but his video shows how to deal with it. Sometimes when I try to fit pants, it helps to tug at them to see what direction a change in the pattern might help - for example, mine pull up enough in front, and cause lines somewhat like that, but when I make an adjustment in back for swayback and add some at the waist seam in front (for extra tummy) that helps the fit in back, During try-on and draping, I pulled down in front a little to see the effect that had on the back, pulled up in back to see how the swayback adjustment might affect fit.
But even after those changes, I had that "twist" I've referred to. Once that was changed fit was much smoother.

woggy
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In reply to fisheggs <<
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Date: 4/9/14 1:37 PM

You have a lovely figure so blame the pattern not your shape.

When wrinkles appear under your fanny such as the ones you have, a few alterations might be necessary.

The material in the center of the torso is “hanging” down on your backside because your fanny is not full enough for the material to wrap around it. The material needs to be raised up on your body.

Pants patterns begin with a skirt block. In order for the back of the pants to fit down the center of your torso and underneath you, a wedge is inserted in the back right above where the curve becomes the center back seam. The widest part of the wedge is at the center back seam – the point of the wedge is at the side seam. The wedge inserted in this pattern’s back is too wide for your fanny. You need to reduce the wedge amount. Reducing the wedge lifts the material up reducing the material hanging down. Now, the tricky part is finding the right amount to remove.

Reducing the wedge also puts the center back seam more on the vertical which many figures need, especially if your fanny is flatter than the pattern design. The more slanted a center back seam is, the more wrinkles appear on the pant leg below the fanny. Don’t confuse the width of your pelvis with the shape of your fanny’s flesh. However, this wedge decrease also shortens the length of the center back plus crotch extension. Many sewists then scoop out around the curve to add back what was lost when the wedge was decreased. Sometimes this scooping works, other times it doesn’t.

If you need to put the length back in the center back, add to the top of the waist what you removed. Fitting books also suggest you add a bit to the inseam width. This inseam increase can cause the leg to become fuller beneath the crotch of the pants.

But before you do this alteration, unzip your pants and pull them down on both sides. The outer most diagonal lines are pointing towards your sides. The fabric is catching on your high hips and also on your extended calves. The side picture shows your knees locked. Locked knees push out calves. When you pull down the side seams, do some of the diagonal wrinkles disappear? If so, then you need more length on the sides. You can add length at the top of the waist.

Your right side has a different shape to it than your left side. There is more of a curve to your right side where your leg meets your torso. You might need to add more to the side seams on your right side. The diagonal pull is deeper on this side plus I see a bit of a pull in the front below your zipper. You need a bit more on the right front extension. My right side has a longer slope to it than my left side due to scoliosis. The top of my right pelvis is sloped downward, and the top of my right leg juts out. I have developed more fat on the outside of the top of my right thigh. Because of this fat deposit and high hip issues, I have to add more material to my right side seam down to below my crotch line. I also have to increase the right front crotch extension.

Question for you. Standing straight with no shoes on, is your pelvis above your tailbone flat or do you feel a slant in this area? If your pelvis has a slant in it, then once you reduce your center back seam with the wedge, you might want to split what you need to add back between the waist and the inseam. A tilted pelvis shifts the material on the body and the center back seam can get “hung up” on the bottom of the tilt causing wrinkles below the fanny.

Make a muslin to try these alterations. Add one inch to the inseams and side seams. You might need to “shift the leg” in the back by letting out the inseam and taking in the side seam. You can try by letting out the inseam about ½ inch from the original sewing line. Start at the hem up to about an inch below the crotch line. Shifting the leg helps put the center of the pants down the center of your leg in the back.

Lastly, it is hard to remove all of the wrinkles from pants because you need to be able to sit and walk.

These pants look pretty good. You are very close but I know how you feel about removing extra wrinkles from your pants.

Sorry this post is long but thought a little bit more information might help you understand the alterations you might need.

Woggy

-- Edited on 4/9/14 2:22 PM --

woggy
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Date: 4/9/14 2:20 PM

Sorry, just realized I did not tell you how to reduce the wedge on your pattern.

You want to pinch out the material in the back of your pants in your torso area. Use pins to pinch out this material. Measure the pinched amount at the center back. If you pinched out ½ inch then that is the amount of the wedge you need to remove.

Copy the back of your pattern. Trace the sewing lines down about 3 inches in the inseam and the sewing lines of the back extension. Extend the grainline up through the torso.

Using a grid type ruler, line up the ruler on the grainline so the top edge of the ruler meets the intersection of the inseam sewing line and the sewing line of the crotch extension. Draw a line from this intersection point over to the side seam. This line is the crotch line of the back pattern. The crotch line needs to be perpendicular to the grainline.

Measure up 2.5 inches to 3 inches from the crotch line. Draw a line across the torso of the pattern at this measurement. This line is parallel to the crotch line. You want to draw this line above the beginning of the crotch curve.

Place a ½ inch mark in the sewing line of the center back seam below the line you drew on the torso.

Slice the line from the center back over to the side seam. Place a piece of tape at the side seam so it doesn’t separate.

Pull the top part of the pattern down to the ½ inch mark. Tape across the pattern. You have removed part of the wedge inserted into this pattern draft. Can you see how the center back seam is more vertical than the original draft of the center back seam?

You will need to true the center back seam a bit where the paper overlaps.

This wedge removal has reduced the overall measurement of the enter center back and extension. If you need the original length of the pattern’s center back and extension, then you need to add it back. You can add this ½ inch at the top of the center back seam at the waistline or at the inseam.

Hope this helps.

Woggy

-- Edited on 4/9/14 2:25 PM --

Elona
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Date: 4/9/14 5:22 PM

Woggy's instructions are super! For figures like yours, her statement here

"Reducing the wedge also puts the center back seam more on the vertical which many figures need, especially if your fanny is flatter than the pattern design. The more slanted a center back seam is, the more wrinkles appear on the pant leg below the fanny."

is right on the money. This adjustment alone removed most of my under-seat wrinkles. Some of the techniques mentioned are illustrated in Debbie Cook's blog page here, , about a third of the way down the page.

Another beautiful series of photos here shows Ann Rowley's set of adjustments for a flat seat.

For those diagonal winkles slanting from the sides of the hips, woggy's suggestion here is also tremendously helpful:

"The outer most diagonal lines are pointing towards your sides. The fabric is catching on your high hips and also on your extended calves. The side picture shows your knees locked. Locked knees push out calves. When you pull down the side seams, do some of the diagonal wrinkles disappear?"

In an old pants Burda pants-fitting video, Sandra Betzina mentioned something like this in her advice to always cut the pants pattern with a couple of inches of extra seam allowance above the waistline. This will allow you, when doing your final try-on, to pin a length of elastic around your waist, and then smooth, smooth, smooth and refine the fit below the elastic. This allows you to remove wrinkles caused by the hangup of the pants on bodily fullness or flatness, like projecting hip points or a flat rear. Then you use chalk below the elastic to show where your waistline seam actually should be.



JTink
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Date: 4/9/14 6:56 PM

Woggy thank you for going in depth. I have just tossed out my first tracing on a new pair of capris. I've made 2 muslins and both were awful. I made the wedge in the center back, but I opened it instead of closing it. Made a lot of wrinkles in the upper leg and lower butt. I need to add about 2 and a half inches to the body of the pattern(crotch length), so working on that now. The journey continues.

woggy
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Date: 4/10/14 1:47 PM

JTink,

It has taken me a long, long time to figure out that a flatter fanny than the pants draft requires a decrease in the inserted wedge on the back piece.

I kept trying to understand what "pull up the pants" meant when this advice was given on this board or in the P&P pants fitting book. When you pull up the back you are actually decreasing the wedge in the back piece.

I was reading a very old post I printed years ago from the old Threads forum. A poster on this thread stated her mom was a Bishop sewing instructor many years ago. The mom taught making pants with the Bishop method and her mom always had the center front and center back on the straight of the grain.

For kicks, last weekend I took my pattern and sliced through it from the side seam over to the center back at the hip line. I placed my pattern on a grid board so the center back lined up parallel to the grainline. The wedge increase on the side was 1.5 inches. Made a quick muslin and all the wrinkles beneath my fanny disappeared.

Now, this increased wedge was way too much for my center back. My pelvis tilts forward but I have a flatter fanny than the draft. When I saw the wrinkles gone, that is when I realized I needed to decrease the back wedge to make the center back seam more vertical.

Slicing through the center back seam at the hip line and lowering the upper portion over the lower portion puts the center back seam more on the vertical. Flatter fannies need a more vertical center back seam.

Inserting a wedge at the center back seam is usually used for a fanny that has roundness to it. The roundness pushes the fabric away from the body so the fabric doesn't collapse at the top of the leg.

The back wedge width controls what happens at the top of the leg.

But you have to figure out where to add back what you have removed so you have enough length to go around and under the body. You can add to the top of the center back at the waist or the inseam. Or, both places. If you need the length and don't put it back, then the pants will pull down when you sit. Just depends on your body shape.

By the way, some figures might require the front wedge to be increased if the back wedge is decreased. This alteration sometimes is needed on a figure to compensate for a stance - hips thrust forward and up with the back tucked under and down.

Woggy

fisheggs
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In reply to woggy <<


Date: 4/13/14 2:00 PM

Woggy - these comments are just amazing. I've got a sleeping baby who just woke up in my office, so I have to run, but I appreciate the detailed response so much! I will definitely be trying this out with a new muslin and will report back!

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