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Full bust adjustments
Which system works best for you
JDpenelope
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JDpenelope  Friend of PR
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Date: 8/30/04 8:15 AM

After struggling with Jalie 2005 and the fba, I was wondering what method works best for others.

The armhole and sleeve are too small, there's a need for small darts or pleats above the bust, it's slightly baggy at the waist in back and it's too tight across the bust, even after the fba and using two sizes!

Not sure I'll continue trying to perfect this pattern for my D- cup bustline--I see the advantage of the close fit for wearing under jackets and for a sleek look.  But my first attempt makes me look like a 60-ish Jayne Mansfield and I don't like it!  A looser fit that tends to hide rather than accentuate the bustline is more flattering in my case.

Observations from others on this and other patterns for ample bustlines would be very interesting.

I hope I can add more categories to my poll, if necessary.  These are the only systems I am aware of.

------
aka Joanne. (Penelope was our cat. RIP.)
"What mother nature gives, father time takes away."
Yahoo group: Sewing-with-Industrial-Machines

Neefer
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Neefer
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Date: 8/30/04 11:22 AM

Only 6 of us have voted, but there's a clear preference for FFRP for the full bust alteration.  However, that doesn't mean that we all need the dart in the same place.  A lot of people need a dart over the bust.  I waffle between wanting a dart under the bust to take away some of the fullness and not wanting it.  I think the under bust dart depends on the fabric.  

I prefer Nancy Z's Fitting Finesse for short sleeve alterations.  I think the pivot and slide method is so much easier, and you get similar results.

It's easy to make the armhole bigger.  Sew another seam line below the existing one in the underarm.  Trim off the old seam allowance, or you can pick it out if you want to be able to undo this alteration.

------
Neefer aka AgitProp and Village Churl Sewing Blog: http://www.oaktrees.org/blog/

Bonny lass, bonny lass, will you be mine?
You shall neither wash dishes nor serve the wine;
But sit on a cushion and sew a fine seam,
And feast upon strawberries, sugar, and cream.

JDpenelope
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JDpenelope  Friend of PR
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Date: 8/30/04 1:25 PM

Thanks, Neefer, I appreciate your tips.  There's been a lot of discussion about bust/bra sizes and making full bust adjustments, so maybe folks are worn out on this subject.  

The pivot and slide method sure looks easier to me and I was wanting to try it, to more easily keep the waist size the same, without needing a vertical dart--and was wondering what the experts thought of it.

I just read in one of SB's books, that there can be extra fabric above the bust after the fba, which can be removed with a dart.  I did that with a small dart in the armhole, but the sleeve (which was too small anyway) seemed to pull all wrong in several directions after that.  

I know I need to be methodical and solve one problem at a time, but there seem to be so many (for me) with this pattern, so I'm not quite sure what is causing what.

------
aka Joanne. (Penelope was our cat. RIP.)
"What mother nature gives, father time takes away."
Yahoo group: Sewing-with-Industrial-Machines

Debbie Cook
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Debbie Cook
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Date: 8/30/04 1:52 PM

Quote
to more easily keep the waist size the same, without needing a vertical dart


I am NOT an expert ... just muddling through with my own adjustments and sharing what I learn along the way ...

OK, with that disclaimer out of the way  :biggrin: ...

All -- OK, 99% -- women's bodice patterns have a bust (horizontal) dart and waist (vertical) dart. They are created when the basic block is created. They have to be there so that the fabric can be molded around the 3D shape of a woman. Whether they are sewn or not is another story. Sometimes the waist dart is rotated out of the waist to the sideseam, or to another area of the bodice. Sometimes it's left unsewn as gathers or pleats. Sometimes it's left unsewn and not rotated, which is when you see a dart trying to form on its own. Same for the bust dart.

Your FBA doesn't have to be one big bust dart. You can slash the pattern in different places and rotate parts of the bust dart to wherever you want/need them. So, maybe you don't want all of the bust adjustment to be in the horizontal dart. Do the FBA, but then rotate half of the addition to the waist and then rotate the waist excess out at the side seam. The result is you've got the room at the bust now but have removed the extra width not needed at the waist.

FWIW, my Jalies don't have sewn darts, so I would expect there to be at least some folds where darts want to form. It's a tee shirt, not a fitted blouse, so I'm OK with that. I minimize the effect by leaving the dart legs at the side seam as a curve and then just ease that area onto to the back piece. It forms a "cup" (for lack of a better description) where I need a cup to ... er  ... cup around my bust. Off the body, you can definitely see the cupped section. On the body, it's taken up by bust tissue.

------
--
"I base my fashion sense on what doesn't itch." — Gilda Radner
http://stitchesandseams.blogspot.com

JDpenelope
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JDpenelope  Friend of PR
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Date: 8/30/04 3:29 PM

Debbie - Was hoping you would have time to weigh in--because you've mastered your technique!  I actually studied and re-studied your raglan top review here , with the excellent illustrations for your fba.  

I get the *idea* of rotating the dart out the side, and tried it, but I don't get the actual method for drawing the new cutting line on the side to eliminate the dart--my curve was pretty severe, because I wanted it to taper back to the original waist.  I also moved the armhole back to its original position--which I now believe was a mistake--thinking that I didn't want the armhole to be any smaller or higher since I wasn't sewing a dart.  I WAS however easing a dart (see below).

Unfortunately, I can't post a photo right now, but maybe I can later--I drew the original pattern piece onto the adjusted piece just for my edification.  Will try to do that and post it here later--if I can figure *that* out.

I also like your method of just easing in the bust dart instead of sewing it and that did seem to work.

My high bust is 32 and I think my bust is 34.  I'm going to re-measure in my new bra tonight.  Below the bust I'm 27, which could account for the D-cup in my new bra, which fits perfectly.  (I've always worn a C cup, but they haven't been fitting lately.)  

I do appreciate your and Neefer's thoughts and tips.

Must go now.

------
aka Joanne. (Penelope was our cat. RIP.)
"What mother nature gives, father time takes away."
Yahoo group: Sewing-with-Industrial-Machines

Debbie Cook
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Debbie Cook
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Date: 8/30/04 4:03 PM

Penelope,

I'll be happy to explain/illustrate better what I did for the sideseam shape ... just give me a couple of days to get through my work deadline. If I don't get back to this by Wed/Thurs, bump the thread to the top again so I see it.

------
--
"I base my fashion sense on what doesn't itch." — Gilda Radner
http://stitchesandseams.blogspot.com

JDpenelope
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JDpenelope  Friend of PR
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Date: 8/30/04 8:01 PM

Thanks, Debbie.  Will do.  Also, I welcome any other advice, experience, or words of wisdom.  

I'm so glad to hear Debbie's thoughts about a t shirt not fitting perfectly with no drag lines, etc--I happen to agree, but I thought maybe I was wrong about that!  

Just re-took my measurements--my high bust seems to be 31" today; bust is still 34 in new bra, under bust, 27; waist, 26, hips, 37.  I'm 5'2" and small boned, but I see from some recent pictures that I no longer have skinny upper arms!  

Here's a photo of the first traced pattern laid on top of the second one, after the fba.  The first pattern was traced at size T (bust - 32 3/8) tapering to U at waist  (26 3/4) and hips (37).  I added 1" horizontally on the pattern when making the fba, or 2 inches total horizontally on the fabric front.  This added about 1/2 inch to the length of the front.

Jalie traced pattern pieces

(Ignore the red lines--I didn't use them)  After the fba, I decided I didn't want horizontal darts or that extra horizontal fabric at the waist and hips, so I tapered from the new bust edge to the waist and hip on the original pattern.  I used Debbie's technique of tapering the extra length at the hem toward the original side seam, to match the back pattern piece.

Then I got to thinking the armhole would be too small and high, so I cut the original armhole--I think this could be part of my problem.  So, I cut around the edges as shown in the photo, except for the heavy black lines, where I cut the original piece.  I hope this is clear!

Photos of the top (not pressed yet !!!;), without sleeves (too small, unusable) are Here and here.

You might be able to see a small, 2 inch dart pointing from the armhole to the bust in the first photo.  (If the top isn't a wadder, I have purchased a happy face applique for decoration to go with the black lycra french binding.)

Last night, I was very discouraged, but tonight, the top looks salvageable, if I can figure out how!!  

If I follow Neefer's tip, which I see would work, the top will be tighter over the bust, which I want to avoid.  But wonder if I could just cut out around the bottom of the armhole to make it bigger.  Then I need to cut out some bigger sleeves.  I wonder how/if that would work with the altered armhole

------
aka Joanne. (Penelope was our cat. RIP.)
"What mother nature gives, father time takes away."
Yahoo group: Sewing-with-Industrial-Machines

Karla Kizer
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Karla Kizer  Friend of PR
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Date: 8/30/04 8:59 PM

My vote is that lonely little one next to Fitting Finesse....  I combine the pivot and slide technique with (is it Marcy Tilton or Sandra Betzina's) slash-the-pattern-front horizontally-to-add-length-and-draw-a-curve-at-the-sideseam technique.  But I agree with Debbie: a few pulls or wrinkles don't stress me out in a t-shirt.  I don't think I've ever bought a knit shirt at any price that didn't have a few of those....

------
“Never try to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and it annoys the pig.” -Robert Heinlein and Ann's father. Thanks for the reminder, Ann.

Where are we going, and what am I doing in this handbasket?

Matthew 25:40 (New International Version)
The King will reply, 'I tell you the truth, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers of mine, you did for me.'



Debbie Cook
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Date: 8/31/04 2:25 AM

Penelope,

A few quick thoughts ...

Quote
Then I got to thinking the armhole would be too small and high


The FBA doesn't change the size of the armhole. The armhole will look like it is higher when you do the FBA, but it's actually just putting the fabric under your arm and around the bust tissue in that area where it needs more. A higher armhole will fit better in a tee shirt than one too low.

Now, having said that, if the armhole is too tight, trace the armhole from the next bigger size. Just slide the pattern over and trace, morphing back to the sideseam of your chosen size. Choose the sleeve to match the armhole you traced. If it turns out a bit too big, you can sew a deeper seam allowance. If you need me to detail this more, let me know and I'll add it to the photos I'm going to take in a couple days.

The darts I'm seeing at the armhole in the pics are forming probably because you don't have sleeves sewn on yet. You need that extra ease with sleeves so you can move your arms. So, don't judge those darts until the sleeves are sewn in. They look to me like I'd expect to see without the sleeves sewn in.

I think you probably need to add another 1/2" to your FBA, judging by the horizontal folds across your bust. Does it feel too tight, or is this just a photo anomaly? I think you said it actually is still too tight, right?

Finally, I think you also need a bit more room at the hips. The tee shirt is bagging at the waist because there's not quite enough fabric for it to ride smoothly at your hips. If you look at the wrinkles, they are mostly pointing down from your waist to your hips.

Keep at it ... I made at least 3 Jalies of differing sizes/adjustments while I was learning FBAs and before I got one to fit me.  :winkgrin:

------
--
"I base my fashion sense on what doesn't itch." — Gilda Radner
http://stitchesandseams.blogspot.com

JDpenelope
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Date: 8/31/04 6:31 AM

Thanks, Debbie and Karla.  I actually sewed in those darts you see above the bust, but I'm going to remove them before basting on new sleeves (more on this below), based on your comment that the extra fabric is needed to ease in the sleeve.

About the armholes/sleeves--I will definitely morph to a bigger size *next* time.  Thanks for offering to help--surely I can figure this part out.  :tounge:   But for this time, I'd like to *cut out* some of the armhole to make it bigger.  

What makes this complicated (to me) is that I need to cut a new sleeve with a bigger circumference for the upper arm.  If I just cut a bigger-sized sleeve, will that work in my new armhole?

The sides are serged    :blush:  so if possible, I'd rather not open them up to make armhole adjustments easier.  (Next time, I won't be so foolish.)

Thanks for feedback on the fit!  Yes, the bust is too tight!  This fabric is cottonish jersey, so I know the fit would be better with a stretchier fabric.  In future attempts, with "cottony" jersey, I'll make the fba larger, as you mention.

And *Thanks* a bunch for feedback about hips needing to be cut larger, causing bagging around the waist.  I really wondered about that--it does it in back, too.  Will add more to hips in future.

I notice the front of the shirt is a lot wider at the bust than the back.  Reading on p 24 of Fitting Finesse, regarding increasing the bust, Nancy has you add half of your extra bust fabric to the *back* of the pattern--you do your pivot and slide thing for 1/4 of the addition at the armhole on the front and back pattern pieces.

On p 42, ("Back changes"), she shows you how to add more to the back if the fba still leaves a tight back.  (Mine does.  I attempted Debbie's technique, based on the FFRP method.)

I wonder if Nancy's system would be a better idea for me--since I want to curve back to the original waist in front, then out to a bigger original hip, also--drawing the lines might be less complicated and more accurate, using the pivot and slide technique...?  I've never used NZ's, but it *sounds* easier, and it works for at least one other advanced sewist, Karla!  

My problem now is to fix the armholes and sleeves on this top, if possible.

If I review this pattern (Jalie 2005), I will suggest that sewists master fba's on patterns with positive ease first.  I read all of the reviews, and should have realized this, but didn't.  

Sorry to go on and on, and I guess I hijacked my own thread.  Maybe I should have continued the helpful Jalie 2005 thread  Here.  Here's hoping a few other beginners are also struggling with incorporating different fba systems into their fitting issues.

------
aka Joanne. (Penelope was our cat. RIP.)
"What mother nature gives, father time takes away."
Yahoo group: Sewing-with-Industrial-Machines

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