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123 
Member since 3/19/09
Posts: 758
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Posted on: 7/31/09 10:02 AM ET
Last night a friend of mine who is contractor and I got in a discussion about this issue. He has been ready to tear his hair out over 2 of his workers who are lazy, and do half way jobs. I had just got off the phone with my mother talking about how 2 of her co-workers are quitting their job because management isn't paying them their worth.

I'm from a family that is made mostly of people who work in the service industry ( hair dresser, mechanics, carpenters, masons, seamstresses, cooks)

Lately I've noticed that alot of skilled craftsmen have been driven from their jobs, not by layoffs, but by people who will do their skilled job cheaper but never quite as well.
Why should a carpenter who has a technical masters certificate be hired at $25/ hr when I can get a guy who just finished tech school to do the same job for $10/hr ? Common sense tells me that, the more skilled guy will do a better quality job, but it will hurt my pocket book.

Is it just the economy or has the skilled jobs been reduced to a "point and click" mentality? Discuss.


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"Costume Tech's are overworked, underpaid, and underappreciated except to those designers, actors, directors, playwrights, and other theater artists who depend on them." - The Costume Technicians Handbook
  
Member since 8/2/02
Posts: 2006
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Posted on: 7/31/09 10:25 AM ET
In reply to shanntarra
I agree - Americans have been seduced by low everyday prices in retail. We exepct high skill and quality but frankly don't want to pay for it.

Everyone complains about jobs going overseas and yet we all shop at Wal-Mart, Kohl's and Target don't we?

We're all hypocrits!

Phyllis
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Sewing = Fashion
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Luck happens when preparation meets opportunity.
  
Member since 3/19/09
Posts: 758
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Posted on: 7/31/09 10:45 AM ET
I've got a girl what wanted to pay me $30 for a custom designed gown. The fabric is more than that. When I told her should have to at least have to pay for supplies. When I gave her a quote, she freaked.
With our new house I'm willing to pay for my friends "Walter" or "Barty" to come in and do our cabinet work. Yes we will have to pay more for it but they won't rot out in 2 years. Both of them are currently working desk jobs making more money than what they went to school to do.

I also think the fact that many people see craftsmen as 2nd hand people instead of artistasns that they are. You can tell when people care about their work and when it is "just another job". It is the people that give a care about their work that are being driven away, and it drives me mad.
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"Costume Tech's are overworked, underpaid, and underappreciated except to those designers, actors, directors, playwrights, and other theater artists who depend on them." - The Costume Technicians Handbook
  
Member since 10/26/06
Posts: 1043
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Posted on: 7/31/09 10:57 AM ET
I think it depends on the situation. In terms of home repair or home maintenance, I would not want someone who's fresh out of school with no experience working on my home. I live in Texas where migrant labor is abundant and normal...but they never show up when they say they will, and sometimes they don't show up at all. I had some work done in my bathroom -- our shower was leaking because the grout had started to break away. They showed up 4 hours late, and when I inspected the work before they left, they hadn't reinforced the one area that I asked them to pay special attention to. They replaced the soap ledge that had fallen off the wall of our other shower. When I took the duct tape off of it 24 hours later -- per their instructions -- it fell right back off again. When I called and complained and asked that they come back and do it again, my calls were never returned. Eventually my husband just fixed it himself. I would have gladly paid more for a job done on time and done well.

At the same time, we do seem to be more or less content with poor quality in things like clothing, bed linens, and other things that we've just come to expect won't last forever. Yet we buy cheap, put-it-together-yourself furniture with directions that are so badly translated from the original Asian language that you can barely understand them -- and then get upset when the bookshelf doesn't survive a move! Quality stuff is expensive, and you just have to decide whether you're willing to pay for it.

My great-grandmother owned a garment factory in a small town in Missouri for many years. When it closed, the whole town curled up and died -- it was the source of most of the jobs in the area. Perhaps it was the workers' unions that drove her prices up so that she couldn't compete in the market. Perhaps it was the increasing number of companies that moved overseas and produced the same items for a fraction of the cost that drove her out of business. Probably it was a little bit of both.

I think I would gladly pay more for things like clothing if I knew they were made in America by American workers, and that those workers were being paid decently and given decent benefits. Of course, who knows how much prices would go up if labor were to come back to this country?

I think President Obama is on to something when he talks about wanting to create new jobs and new technology in the energy field. There's no point in trying to bring back labor that's already be shipped overseas. But if the government were to fund research in that field they way they funded the space program in the '60s, and if education to get jobs in that field became affordable for the average person, I think we would absolutely see an explosion of new technology and new jobs. But how the fund the research and how to make education more affordable is another issue entirely!
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"To love another person is to see the face of God!" ~Les Miserables

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Member since 1/27/09
Posts: 428
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Posted on: 7/31/09 10:59 AM ET
I left my job in a tailorshop for a very high-priced, upscale clothing store in December. I was disgusted that I worked my tail off, doing skilled work that I had worked hard to master and made the same amount of money I would have made working in the kitchen at McDonalds. I feel like in my own business I charge a very reasonable rate for the quality of my work and still have some people who choke at the thought of having to pay more than $20 for a custom anything. For the most part though, I do feel that my customers respect my prices and appreciate the skill and service they recieve.
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Member since 3/19/09
Posts: 758
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Posted on: 7/31/09 11:24 AM ET
In reply to Cisa
I'm paid pennies for what do with the theater but I love doing it. What makes it worth while are the people I work with. Seeing actors who were mistreated because of their size or issues nearly cry and cheer because some one is taking the time to listen and make those adjustments. The fact they bring me Mt. Dew when I have a long night of sewing ahead of me. Or give me hugs when they see their finished garment. That is what makes it worth it.

On the other hand we had a freind who went balistic when my husband bought a hand crafted, hand sharpened knife for his work. Why would anyone pay that much for a knife? ( granted this is the guy who paid that much for a replica of a Farscape gun that will sit on a shelf) The knife is an every day use able work of art. In fact he wants to get one from them to use as a kitchen knife. Well worth the money. Especially with the lifetime free sharpening (well it costs you a can of guiness, in a box to send it to them and they pay return shipping. The Guiness is a tip, and weighs the same as the knife, so no problem on shipping costs)

I think it boils down to the fact are you buying something as an investment, or for disposable. If it is an investment, especially in the home, pay for the craftsmen to do it. If it is something that you don't mind if it is gone quickly, go cheap.
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"Costume Tech's are overworked, underpaid, and underappreciated except to those designers, actors, directors, playwrights, and other theater artists who depend on them." - The Costume Technicians Handbook
  
Member since 8/7/08
Posts: 821
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Posted on: 7/31/09 1:08 PM ET
The effects of it will trickle down and hit us all eventually. One trade I KNOW is getting hit hard right now is Locksmithing. My boyfriend is a locksmith. For how long he's been working there he's quite skilled (just under a year) but he has a lot to learn. But theres no experienced/journeymen locksmiths working for smaller shops anymore who can teach him. They all leave for other provences or are working for the city/gov't.

Its happening with other trades too. The experienced workers or journeyment are leaving for different jobs/retiring and the labour force isn't being replenished. We're force-fed in school that "thechnology is the new wave and will replace hand skills" but thats not the case. Theres still many many jobs out there that require human presision and human touch. My sister is a cabinet maker, shes very dedicated to her craft and wants to make it to journeywoman... if she can find someone to keep aprenticing her till she takes her final year. Its becoming harder and harder.

I hate to admit it, but the vast majority of my generation (i'm 23) is lazy and would rather play video games and mooch off of their parents or welfare. (yes i've asked my peers that before when i ask why they're not working. "working eats too much video game time" ) They all want to get jobs right off the start that are 20+ an hour, and they don't want to do any hard labour or work in 'immigrant or old people jobs" (i really get annoyed when my peers call retail jobs that, drives me nuts, i worked retail for 3 years)

I think I completely missed the point. I see this stuff happening all the time though. My family is very trades orientated as well.
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I've lost count now, the walls are now fabric.

  
Member since 3/19/09
Posts: 758
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Posted on: 7/31/09 2:00 PM ET
It is part of growing up doing the "crud" jobs. They are the one's that teach you to appreciate your later jobs.

When I wanted to learn to REALLY sew i tried to find a seamstress to teach me, or even a tailor. I kept being told, "go to the university and take a class" That is NOT what I wanted to do. I ended up going over seas to go to school. THere I found what I needed. Even there I found some of the tailors wouldn't talk to young people because all they saw were the "pot smoking, video game playing, beer swiging yahoo's" sterotype.
My tutor wanted to have this well known milliner come teach us, but his shop went under. He went and split all his hat form instead of donating them to some place that could use them because he didn't want "young people" using them.

I agree there are alot of skilled crafters people retiring and yes there are just not enough people filling their spots. Some are now to the age where they can't take apprentices. We are losing real treasures.
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"Costume Tech's are overworked, underpaid, and underappreciated except to those designers, actors, directors, playwrights, and other theater artists who depend on them." - The Costume Technicians Handbook
  
Member since 9/23/07
Posts: 199
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Posted on: 7/31/09 2:25 PM ET
In reply to PhyllisC
Amen Phyllis, amen. I have been saying this for years. We Americans are all at fault for the state we are in. We want things to be rock bottom in price and we want things in excess. That way, we all can live like neurosurgeons even though we don't have the education, skill or drive. The first trip I made to Europe, I was astounded at the price of clothing. I can assure you that everything was of the highest quality. I couldn't believe someone would pay "that much!" for a baby sweater. At that time, Europeans did not have closets full of clothes to be worn for only one season. They purchased clothing that would be with them for some time. Well worth the sticker shock.
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Ellen
http://sewlostforyou.blogspot.com
  
Member since 4/4/08
Posts: 682
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Posted on: 8/1/09 1:40 AM ET
I think the job problems with skilled craftsmen & artisans has been developing over a long period of time. No doubt with the present economy it has gotten worse.
The reality of anything hand crafted takes time and depending on what is being made or done, some things take more time, others less. Obviously the higher the skill factor and greater the quality should raise the cost.

For people who don't work with their hands, I think many are clueless as to how much time hand crafted things can take or how much skill or years of learning it can take to learn the craft or how much creativity can be involved. Many can't appreciate what the craftsmen/artisans do and see them more as just "blue collar" workers.
The other fact is most people want to pay as little as possible for services and things. Plus not everyone can afford things that are expensive, the more expensive the services or hand crafted goods there will be less people who can afford them.

I did some custom sewing 30 years ago and people wanted perfect fit with difficult fitting problems and didn't want to pay for the time it would take to make such clothes. They acted like I should be able cut it out and sew it up in nothing flat. They wanted to pay less than it would cost to go to a good store and buy RTW. I didn't do custom sewing for very long, too big of a pain. From some of the responses, it sounds like nothing has changed in 30 years.

Anymore I do my handcrafts as a hobby. I just finished my DD wedding dress and for the amount of time it took me to make it, I would have had to charge a small fortune. Without a big name, I highly doubt if anyone would pay what I would have needed to charge to make a living.
Martha
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Martha
  
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